Navigating Relationships with Shippers | EP 15
On today's episode on Veritas Vantage, Supply Chain Leaders Brian Hastings and Justin Maines dive into the often-unspoken challenges of dealing with bad shippers and manufacturers. They explore the key characteristics of both positive and negative shipping relationships and share real-life experiences to help you identify red flags and manage these partnerships effectively. Join Brian and Justin, as they discuss communication breakdowns, price negotiations, and the nuances that differentiate true shipping partners from mere transactional relationships. Whether you're a broker or a logistics professional, discover valuable insights on maintaining healthy, long-term business relationships and fostering success in the shipping industry.
Let's dive into today's episode!
The Logistics & Leadership Podcast, powered by Veritas Logistics, redefines logistics and personal growth. Hosted by industry veterans and supply chain leaders Brian Hastings and Justin Maines, it shares their journey from humble beginnings to a $50 million company. Discover invaluable lessons in logistics, mental toughness, and embracing the entrepreneurial spirit. The show delves into personal and professional development, routine, and the power of betting on oneself. From inspiring stories to practical insights, this podcast is a must for aspiring entrepreneurs, logistics professionals, and anyone seeking to push limits and achieve success.
Timestamps:
(00:48) - Identifying Toxic Relationships in Shipping
(01:51) - Challenges with Inaccurate Information and Negotiations
(02:42) - Evaluating Long-Term Value in Shipping Relationships
(03:53) - The Role of Price in Shipping Partnerships
(05:17) - Real-Life Examples of Bad Shippers
(07:23) - Striving to Be the Shipper of Choice
(09:38) - Fostering Positive Relationships with Shippers
(12:10) - Dealing with Threats and Scare Tactics from Bad Shippers
(14:59) - Conclusion: Promoting Great Carriers and Respecting Their Work
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Transcript
What do you do when you have a bad shipper or manufacturer?
Speaker A:On today's episode, we're going to uncover situations that are not normally talked about.
Speaker A:We're going to peel back the layer of what it's like to have a good partner, a good shipping relationship, as well as a bad relationship.
Speaker A:Justin, have you ever had any, you know, bad shipping partners that you deal with?
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:That was quick.
Speaker A:That was a quick response, man.
Speaker B:No, a few stick out, but yes, yes, definitely have.
Speaker B:And it's a learning process.
Speaker B:We've had some in the past, we'll have some in the future.
Speaker B:There's a lot of things you can do to kind of manage that, but want to turn it back to you.
Speaker B:What comes to mind, you know, what are some characteristics that you see is like, this getting a little toxic?
Speaker B:I don't think it makes sense.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Might need to end this relationship.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I mean, I think, you know, like to break it down a little bit.
Speaker A:I think it's hard, right?
Speaker A:Especially from a salesperson or from a logistics salesperson, right.
Speaker A:You are prospecting or you're calling these people for weeks, maybe months at a time, and then all of a sudden you get your chance, right?
Speaker A:And you get your shot to do business together.
Speaker A:And, you know, I think that when you ask the question of what characteristics, I think a lot of it has to do with the communication piece.
Speaker A:Are they giving you the right details?
Speaker A:You know, we've seen a million times before where a customer sends over.
Speaker A:A shipper sends over details to a load that are inaccurate, right?
Speaker A:Then we go back and you say, hey, listen, this is not.
Speaker A:We can't do this.
Speaker A:This is, you know, 900 miles overnight.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And then, you know, the shipper might say, well, all my other brokers do it, right?
Speaker A:Like those for a lot less money, Right, Right.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:For cheaper.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So I think, you know, that's just one example.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So inaccurate information, I think, you know, trying to negotiate on every single shipment possible.
Speaker A:Now they have a job to do, Right.
Speaker A:And they.
Speaker A:Their job is to maintain the cost or reduce the costs of their department.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Which we get that, I think.
Speaker A:But there is a fine line there where if they're coming back and they're negotiating every 25 bucks or 50 bucks on every single load, it gets exhausting after a.
Speaker A:I think the last thing is, you know, they have to look at it or shipper, manufacturer, they need to look at it from, you know, from a true partnership relationship as well.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So if they're just looking at you as a Commodity, I think that's going to be a rocky road ahead.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So I think those are things that, you know, just three quick, you know, items to look for.
Speaker A:If your customers don't value you or they don't value the relationship or partnership, you have to figure out, is this going to be worth it long term?
Speaker B:That's exactly it.
Speaker B:And here's how I view it, Brian.
Speaker B:You have relationships with good shippers, bad shippers.
Speaker B:It's a relationship.
Speaker B:Then you have your partnerships.
Speaker B:Those are with your true partners, your clients that you're going to focus your time on.
Speaker B:You have to figure out things up front.
Speaker B:It's like dating.
Speaker B:You have to figure it out up front whether or not this relationship makes sense.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And if they're throwing out red flags and, you know, you call them, they're willing to give you a load.
Speaker B:They just want the cheapest price.
Speaker A:Sure.
Speaker B:It's probably not going to be the most healthy relationship.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And I doubt it's going to end in a partnership because what you value doesn't line up with what they value.
Speaker A:Sure.
Speaker B:And you have to ask those questions up front to qualify them to see if it even makes sense to continue the conversation.
Speaker B:So there's a lot of, you know, flags and things that we look for in clients, and if their values line up with ours, then yes, we continue the conversation and we look for commitments to get to that partnership type relationship with that.
Speaker A:Like, you know, we talk about price, and obviously that's a huge factor in our business.
Speaker A:But like, if a customer or a shipper is out there and they're, they're always asking about price.
Speaker A:They're always, you know, trying to send quotes out.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Do you, do you necessarily view that as a bad thing or like, what.
Speaker A:What do you think about that?
Speaker A:The price stuff?
Speaker B:No, obviously it's important for all companies.
Speaker B:You know, you're not just going to go if you're getting.
Speaker B:If you have a partner, a carrier, let's say, that runs for $1,000 and they do a phenomenal job for you, and then you have another partner that is quoting you $1,500 and they do a phenomenal job for you, it makes no sense to go and pay the $1,500 when you have someone who's providing you the exact same service.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:For a lower cost, yes, prices are always going to be important.
Speaker B:But when your service is far and above the competitions and you're not that much higher.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:Shippers, and this is anyone in general.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:You need to think of the consequence Consequences.
Speaker B:Yeah, for paying a lower cost and getting a shittier service.
Speaker A:I mean, I think like, I always view it to like an airline, right?
Speaker A:Like you pay that low cost for like a value airline and I feel like with that you always get like the tack ons, right?
Speaker A:Like a bag fee or like a aisle seat fee.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:God, I remember we flew a value airline a couple of years ago and it was like, like, hold on, wait a second.
Speaker A:What?
Speaker A:Like this is actually more than what my flight with Delta would have been.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:But with like so with the relationship or bad shipper I got, I, I have, I have one that comes to mind and it's a.
Speaker B:Let's hear about.
Speaker A:Yeah, I think it's like, you know, it was one of those things where they had the volume, right?
Speaker A:And I knew that they had product that needed to be shipped into, you know, the major retailers, Costco, Albertson, Safeway, Walmart.
Speaker A:I knew that the opportunity was there, but it was just the mentality, right?
Speaker A:And it was always like even the negotiating on price on every single shipment and never even like from a shipper side of it like saying thank you or good work, right?
Speaker A:Which like that's kind of like our business.
Speaker A:We don't really operate on thank yous or you know, thumbs ups.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:But I think it does, you know, bring some value from the shipper side when they appreciate how hard you're working, whether that's a night or a weekend or handling a problem.
Speaker A:I also think like with that shipper, I know that she never worked anytime outside the hours of 8 and 5.
Speaker A:So if I had an issue at 7:30pm going back to her, like texting or calling, they would not get answered until the next day.
Speaker A:And then here I am, I got a carrier on the line, loads not getting picked up or maybe the load hasn't, is not ready.
Speaker A:Well, I got to lay this guy over.
Speaker A:I have to pay money, you know, 250 layover, whatever it is.
Speaker A:And I don't know if they're going to reimburse.
Speaker A:I mean so like it was like, yes, they have volume, yes, they, they have products being moved all the time.
Speaker A:But like the relationship is just was not there.
Speaker A:Have you ever had anything like that or.
Speaker B:Yes, definitely.
Speaker B:Plenty.
Speaker B:And it's, it's funny you say that because the way, the way I look at it is, you know, what are the cultures at that company?
Speaker B:I don't work at these companies, but you can get a feel for the culture if the way they're treating the carriers and their partners is you know, pretty negative and very transactional and like.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:When you're doing stuff well, they're.
Speaker B:They're loving you, but as soon as you slip up, they're wanting to kill you.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:It has to be reciprocated and it has to go both ways.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:So, yes, I've had plenty of those relationships.
Speaker B:But also, you know, you look at the good relationships and what they do.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:I think what, what a lot of shippers, you know, I think the great shippers do this very well, but being the shipper of choice.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:In the industry.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:What shippers do drivers, like, want to pick up, they see that city.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:They're begging you for, you know, the same shipments out of that.
Speaker B:That location because, you know, they show up, the.
Speaker B:The warehouse employees are always positive and welcoming.
Speaker B:They get them in and out.
Speaker B:Like, these drivers are wanting to load, reload, drop, deliver, move.
Speaker B:They're.
Speaker B:They're all over the place.
Speaker B:And if they're sitting at a shipper for eight hours and the shipper's detention.
Speaker A:Policy is not getting zero dollars and.
Speaker B:Five bucks after 24, like, the driver's not going to want to go back to that facility.
Speaker A:And I think, like, you look at it from, you know that, like, if you are striving to be that shipper of choice right now, you're going to reduce the costs that you have.
Speaker A:Because these people are willing to take those shipments because they know they have a relationship and they know that it's easier to deal with those items.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:They know if they're waiting for more than four hours and they're going to get paid.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And I think that brings a ton of value from the, you know, from the shipping manufacturing side as opposed to, you know, we talk about on this side over here, like the bad carriers.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Or the not bad carriers, the bad shipping, manufacturing partners.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Where they're just, they're churning through trucking companies, brokers, you know, each and every day, and they'll set up anybody at any point just to get the cheapest price.
Speaker B:Yeah, you're exactly right.
Speaker B:And I think it's funny when you call them and, you know, we talk about this a lot, but when you call them, they're immediately willing to set you up just because it's like, whoa, yeah.
Speaker A:Wait a second.
Speaker A:What's wrong here?
Speaker B:Red flag.
Speaker B:Because.
Speaker B:Because the.
Speaker B:They can't onboard carriers fast enough before they're out the door.
Speaker A:Probably a pretty bad ship.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:The shippers that, you know, you're jumping through hoops on and you're going way above and beyond to get their attention, get an opportunity to work with them.
Speaker B:I'm like, those are probably the ones you want to focus on because one, you know that the opportunity is there.
Speaker B:But also when they're telling you they're loyal to their current carriers, they appreciate service, they appreciate relationships, they appreciate communication.
Speaker B:Like, that's what we value.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And, you know, as long as we have a seat at the table and we're doing the right things and checking the boxes, at some point, we will eventually work with them.
Speaker B:And one comes to mind, you know, on a positive side, you know, our clients that we appreciate more than anything are the ones that they share, you know, their appreciation back to us.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And one in particular, probably my favorite client of all time.
Speaker B:You know, we had a very consistent track record of reliability.
Speaker B:You know, service communication.
Speaker B:We were.
Speaker B:We were run a very tight process with our operations side, and.
Speaker B:And they loved what we're doing.
Speaker B:And we had a stretch of a week where, you know, breakdown.
Speaker B:And these are high.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Priority hot shipments between facilities or transfer shipments.
Speaker B:Breakdown, breakdown, breakdown.
Speaker B:I drug my feet on repowering a couple of the shipments.
Speaker B:And my contact, who's incredible, you know, he's on my ass.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:What are you doing?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Like, this is out of the blue, right?
Speaker B:You're shooting 99.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:But you're just tanking in the last stretch here.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:Um, I.
Speaker B:I got a pinata.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:From Party Source.
Speaker A:Oh, nice.
Speaker B:It was the poop emoji pinata.
Speaker A:Oh, there you go.
Speaker B:I filled it with airplane shots.
Speaker A:Oh, there you go.
Speaker B:I wrote a handwritten car with bourbon, tequila.
Speaker A:What was it?
Speaker B:It was a mix.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:It was filled with a hangover, but I wrote a handwritten card with the message of, you know, Mr.
Speaker B:Contact.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Apologies for shit in the bed this past year.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I love it.
Speaker B:I want you to know that you're my top priority.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:This is not.
Speaker B:I learned from it.
Speaker B:This is not going to happen.
Speaker B:So on and so forth.
Speaker B:So our relationship only grew from that point.
Speaker B:And I think that the message there is, if you have great partners, be upfront.
Speaker B:Like, the one controllable that we have is communication.
Speaker B:Unfortunately for our industry, people do not know how to communicate.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:They suck at it.
Speaker B:Correct.
Speaker B:So if you have an issue to have a healthy relationship, be upfront.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Hey, Mr.
Speaker B:Mrs.
Speaker B:Prospect or Client.
Speaker B:I screwed up, but here's what I learned, and here's.
Speaker B:Here's the solution for it.
Speaker B:So, you know, when you have the shippers, you don't really want to work with.
Speaker B:You're not even getting an opportunity to say that because you're just getting slapped on the wrist constantly.
Speaker B:The good partners are going to be the ones that appreciate that you learn from it.
Speaker B:They know you have the track record.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:But you grow from that point on.
Speaker A:Sure.
Speaker A:Do.
Speaker A:Do you think like, with, you know, if we had like a bad shipper.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So that's a great shipper.
Speaker A:I love that story.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:I think that's.
Speaker B:And real quick.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:All the drivers want to load at their facilities, take care of the carriers.
Speaker A:Of course.
Speaker A:Yeah, that's exactly it.
Speaker A:And they promote that culture of like, hey, we're going to take care of you, keep coming back and, you know, happy customers.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:You know, now, on the, on the bad shipper side of it, right.
Speaker A:When we talk about those type of people or those type of manufacturers, I think there is like, if there was a.
Speaker A:And I've felt this over time, but if you screw up, you know, maybe have two or three late trucks in a row during a given week, I always feel that those bad shippers, they're always threatening business.
Speaker A:They always like, hold it over your head to say, all right, well, I guess we're just going to, you know, put you on the shelf.
Speaker A:We're going to cut you out for the next couple of weeks.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Which, like, I don't know, like.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Is it a scare tactic?
Speaker A:It is.
Speaker A:But at the same time, like, okay, is that what our relationship or partnership is?
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So I think, you know, speaking to some of the brokers that are listening to this, to the show, making make sure that you know who you're dealing with.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:If they're constantly threatening you or constantly trying to kick you out, I always view it, you know, what a relationship is, what it is.
Speaker A:And I went back to that, the one that I was talking about where a lot of volume delivered into big retailers.
Speaker A:They treated, they treated me poorly.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:They were negotiating every rate.
Speaker A:I know that with that I would cherry pick a lot of those lanes.
Speaker A:Am I devoting a ton of energy into it?
Speaker A:No.
Speaker B:Are you answering your phone after hours and weekends?
Speaker A:Probably not.
Speaker A:Probably not yet.
Speaker A:Am I like proactively going out and solving problems on a, on a Sunday night at 8pm probably not.
Speaker A:I'm just going to roll it till Monday because of that relationship.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Is that, is that the right thing to do?
Speaker A:I don't know.
Speaker A:But I think that the shipper and the manufacturer, they set that precedent and that relationship is there.
Speaker A:And I think, you know, as younger brokers listen to this, or any broker listens to it, you know, trying to cherry pick those type of relationships.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Where.
Speaker A:Okay, I'm really good on, you know, lane A, B and C.
Speaker A:I can make a decent margin on these and I have a good carrier base to follow through.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:You don't need to totally write off every single bad shipper out there, but know them for, for what they're worth, I guess, is what I'm trying to say.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker B:Yeah, and think of it this way too.
Speaker B:When you're devoting all this time and energy working your ass off for cheap shipments that you know they're probably going to pay in 60 to 90 days.
Speaker A:Yeah, we didn't even get on that part yet.
Speaker A:You can pay the terms.
Speaker A:Payment terms.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Run our list of ar.
Speaker B:You can see exactly who's on there.
Speaker B:But yeah, focus that time and energy on either your clients who value.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Or new business for shippers that will value what you bring to the table.
Speaker B:So you're exactly right.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:So a couple of things, you know, to think of, you know, we talked about characteristics of good shippers, we talked about characteristics of bad shippers.
Speaker A:You know, at the end of the day, it comes down to time management.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Where do we want to spend our time and who do we want to, you know, bring value to as a service provider?
Speaker A:So if you have any thoughts or comments, please add those on LinkedIn or, you know, drop them here in the, in the show.
Speaker A:We'll just call a spade a spade.
Speaker A:Some drivers can be challenging, right.
Speaker A:And I think we have to do a better job promoting a lot of those great carriers that are out there that want to do a good job and they want to take care of our clients freight and take a lot of pride in their work.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So as brokers, we need to do a better job of bringing that to the table and respecting these people.
Speaker A:And hell, you said it, man.
Speaker A:That literally keep this country moving every single day.
