Navigating the Aftermath of a Bad Hire | Ep 32
In this episode, we tackle the anxiety and challenges associated with making a bad hire. Covering topics like identifying poor hires within the first few months, the importance of documentation, leveraging HR resources, and legal advice, the conversation provides actionable steps and corrective measures when dealing with underperforming employees. We delve into approaches for performance reviews, implementing Performance Improvement Plans (PIPs), handling cultural misfits, and the importance of reflective hiring practices. Real-life examples and best practices are discussed to better guide you through creating an effective and efficient hiring process. Tune in to learn how to navigate these tough situations and improve your hiring decision-making skills.
The Logistics & Leadership Podcast, powered by Veritas Logistics, redefines logistics and personal growth. Hosted by industry veterans and supply chain leaders Brian Hastings and Justin Maines, it shares their journey from humble beginnings to a $50 million company. Discover invaluable lessons in logistics, mental toughness, and embracing the entrepreneurial spirit. The show delves into personal and professional development, routine, and the power of betting on oneself. From inspiring stories to practical insights, this podcast is a must for aspiring entrepreneurs, logistics professionals, and anyone seeking to push limits and achieve success.
Timestamps:
(00:00) - Dealing with a Bad Hire: Recognizing the Problem
(00:44) - Approaching the Issue: Documentation and Legal Advice
(02:06) - Addressing Performance Issues: Setting Expectations
(04:33) - Handling Cultural Misfits: Balancing Performance and Culture
(07:06) - The Importance of Referrals: Managing Recommendations
(09:06) - Learning from Mistakes: Reflecting on Hiring Decisions
(12:18) - Conclusion: Hiring Smart for a Better Future
Connect with us!
▶️ Website | LinkedIn | Brian’s LinkedIn | Justin’s LinkedIn
▶️ Get our newsletter for more logistics insights
▶️ Send us your questions!! ask@go-veritas.com
Watch the pod on: YouTube
Transcript
One of the most anxiety inducing situations is when you're running a team or a company and you know you've made a bad hire, you're two or three months in, you realize I screwed something up.
Speaker A:This is, this is not looking good.
Speaker A:Going down the wrong path here with a candidate that's now an employee.
Speaker A:Talk to me about it.
Speaker B:Yeah, I, it's happened too many times, I'll tell you that.
Speaker A:You and I both.
Speaker B:Yeah, I, Yeah, you, you see pretty quickly.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:Like I think a lot of times we look at, when we hire somebody, we bring them in, you can tell if they're going to be the right type of person within the first two to three months.
Speaker B:If you're a hiring manager and you make a bad decision, I think there's a couple different ways you approach it.
Speaker B:Number one, I think you hit a head on.
Speaker B:I think you, you try to document everything that you have to.
Speaker B:I know that in the past, in my, you know, previous role and our previous roles, our HR person on our team was kind of like our best friend.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:We would talk to them a couple times a week.
Speaker B:We would learn a ton about the processes and what to document and how to approach certain, certain things.
Speaker B:And you know, with that, if you're, if you're a smaller company and you can't really afford an HR resource at this point, make sure that you have an attorney that can, you can bounce ideas off of, or if there is a situation that pops up, they can give you strong legal advice.
Speaker B:You know, you can bring that back to the employees and make sure that you're implementing that moving forward.
Speaker A:Not only that, but if you're a smaller company and don't have those HR systems and processes or personnel in place, you can lean on your attorney.
Speaker A:But there's also a lot of free resources online or within your market.
Speaker A:If you just Google HR Partners and ABC market, there's a lot of people out there that are cost affordable.
Speaker A:On top of that, you know, we use a lot of free resources through our payroll platform.
Speaker D:Sure.
Speaker A:You know, there's an HR help desk or HR documents that you can pool as needed and use those just kind of build out your own, you know, small company department for hr.
Speaker E:Yeah.
Speaker B:So say you made a bad hire, maybe it's hell a couple months in.
Speaker B:And how do you, how do you go about addressing that?
Speaker B:Or like, what's the process like?
Speaker B:You talk to your attorney, this person's not really working out.
Speaker B:What, what do we do next?
Speaker A:Yeah, it depends.
Speaker A:And every, every candidate's gonna be Situational, especially depending on what they're doing or what the issue is.
Speaker A:But if I have a candidate and I know I made a bad hire, I'm going through and I'm checking the boxes early on.
Speaker A:And this is, you know, what you want to be very thorough about is expectations.
Speaker A:You know, the hours, performance, what they should be doing day to day.
Speaker A:Like the job.
Speaker A:The job descriptions.
Speaker A:You.
Speaker A:You are upfront about that.
Speaker A:So if they come in and you're telling someone, hey, it's 80 cold calls a day, and they're making 10.
Speaker A:Well, now you're able to.
Speaker A:Since you talk about those expectations, you're able to hold them accountable.
Speaker E:Yeah.
Speaker A:So let's say we are a month into sales, and they're not doing anything that you're, you know, they're expected to do.
Speaker D:Sure.
Speaker A:You can pull them into the side room or have a separate conversation and say, bad hire.
Speaker A:This is what we talked about.
Speaker E:Yeah.
Speaker A:And this is what you told me in your interview.
Speaker A:And you're excited about, you know, pursuing, you know, opportunities and growing your book of business and making the X amount of dollars.
Speaker A:But your actions and your effort, they do not line up with that at all.
Speaker A:Like, what's going on here?
Speaker B:When you have that scenario.
Speaker B:Right, and they're not matching up to the expectations, do you do, like, a performance review or performance improvement or a pip, I think is what a lot of people call it scenario.
Speaker B:How do you handle that?
Speaker A:Yeah, I mean, it's corrective action.
Speaker A:You know, if they have potential to do well and they're.
Speaker A:Let's say they are.
Speaker A:They're a cultural fit, but their actual performance is not lining up, and that's common.
Speaker A:You have to give them some type of structure or guidance or light of fire under their ass to make sure that they are getting to the point where you need them.
Speaker E:Yeah.
Speaker A:At the end of the day, if people are not bringing value and pulling weight, there's not a seat for them at the company.
Speaker A:But again, legally, in.
Speaker A:From a culture standpoint, you have to have some type of paper trail.
Speaker D:Sure.
Speaker A:Because if you.
Speaker A:If you blindside them two months in after they've been underperformance, hey, listen, you got to go.
Speaker A:See you.
Speaker E:Yep.
Speaker A:Think.
Speaker A:Well, you're probably gonna have a lawsuit in the near future.
Speaker A:Legally, you need those things in place.
Speaker A:But also, once you have those conversations now you're able to have.
Speaker A:Hold them accountable.
Speaker A:You had the initial one.
Speaker A:Now you have paper, document.
Speaker E:Yeah.
Speaker A:It doesn't.
Speaker A:It doesn't improve.
Speaker A:So now you're having a file.
Speaker A:Hey, Listen, if you can't get to this point, which is where we need you, we gotta let you go.
Speaker B:What if you have a person and this happens a lot in our industry, Right.
Speaker B:Or most sales companies, you have a person that's a rockstar salesperson, but from a culture perspective, they don't really fit the bill.
Speaker B:What do we, what do we do here?
Speaker B:How do we, how do we have a performance review with our, you know, best salesperson or our, you know, top sales leader, whatever you want to call that.
Speaker A:These types of situations are where a company's true colors and culture shine.
Speaker E:Yeah.
Speaker A:You know, and it starts from the top, it bleeds down from there.
Speaker A:But your top performer is not a culture fit or they're becoming cancerous to the rest of the team for a number of reasons, whatever it may be.
Speaker E:Yeah.
Speaker A:At the end of the day, how important is that person compared to your culture?
Speaker D:Sure.
Speaker B:How much time does it take out as a manager?
Speaker A:Correct.
Speaker B:It's consumed time commitment there.
Speaker B:I mean, it's huge.
Speaker A:But yes, at the end of the day, they are not worth.
Speaker A:And we say this often, but no one is above the company, including you and I.
Speaker A:So if there is someone that is becoming cancerous to our culture for a number of reasons, whatever it may be, I'm not saying we have this, but we have had it in past positions.
Speaker A:They have to go if they do not improve.
Speaker A:But you can't sugarcoat this.
Speaker A:You can't have these fluffed up conversations like, hey, man, can you be a little bit more nice to so and so, or can you please show up at this time?
Speaker A:It's hey, listen, you're doing a great job from sales standpoint, but you're awful from a culture standpoint.
Speaker A:And it's creating a lot of issues, issues that we can't have.
Speaker A:And it's wasting my time and everyone else's time.
Speaker A:So, like, this is, this is how we need to improve time management.
Speaker B:That's huge.
Speaker A:What about you?
Speaker A:Have you, like true examples?
Speaker A:Have you had any?
Speaker B:I think one of the best stories that I have, and this, this person was very early on in their sales career, but he had a tough time showing up to work on time.
Speaker B:And we had, you know, two written warnings.
Speaker B:On his final third warning, the guy's name was Brandon Austin and he was in Fayetteville.
Speaker B:And he, on his final written warning or his final third warning, I said, you know, you're, you have to show up to work on time or else you're gonna be fired at that point.
Speaker B:And I think this was probably.
Speaker B:He was probably three, four months in.
Speaker B:I loved the kid.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:I saw so much potential in him and it was.
Speaker B:It was killing me that he couldn't, you know, show up to work on time.
Speaker B:So he turned it around from there.
Speaker B:He ended up being a great salesperson, great leader.
Speaker B:He now manages a whole division in Dallas, Texas.
Speaker B:The dude turned it around.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:And having that, you know, conversation with him, I'm glad that we did at that point.
Speaker B:But it was becoming a distraction for the team.
Speaker B:You know, he wasn't necessarily a referral, but I did want to bring that up, like with referrals.
Speaker B:And you have somebody that we try to push referrals all the time.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:We want people that are, you know, similar minded, where they're trying to achieve a certain level of success.
Speaker B:How do you handle it if somebody that's good today, they bring in a referral and that referral just might not pan out.
Speaker B:How do you handle that?
Speaker A:Yes, referrals are unique.
Speaker A:And when we have some of our top producers referring some of their friends or family, whoever it may be, into interview, you can't just treat it as a cakewalk to see that at a desk they need to be treated the exact same way.
Speaker A:Like, yes, you can keep that in the back of your head, but you still have to be equally thorough in your interview process because you may miss some cues if you're just like, okay, great referral, here's your referral bonus.
Speaker A:When can you start?
Speaker B:Dude, my guard has been down so many times with referrals.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Like, oh, my gosh, I love Steve over here.
Speaker B:And he's referring this person in, you know what, I'm going to ask a couple questions and then he's pretty much hired.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Has that ever happened to scenarios with you?
Speaker A:Yeah, it'll bite you.
Speaker A:Yeah, it happens too often than not.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:You know, you also want to set that expectation with the team.
Speaker E:Yeah.
Speaker A:Our culture is about working your tail off, being a true teammate, living with integrity.
Speaker A:Working with integrity.
Speaker E:Yeah.
Speaker A:You know, make sure your values are very clear and then drive referrals from there.
Speaker D:Sure.
Speaker A:If someone's bringing you a referral, it's not.
Speaker A:Okay, great.
Speaker A:Yeah, we'll interview them.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:Why are you bringing them in?
Speaker A:Yeah, well, I don't know.
Speaker A:He just got fired for stealing.
Speaker A:It's not going to work.
Speaker A:I'm bringing them in because he's extremely passionate about sales and he's doing well.
Speaker A:He just wants more opportunity.
Speaker A:And I've known him since I was a child of the kid, he's phenomenal.
Speaker A:Competitive, confident.
Speaker A:Like, that's when, you know, okay, yeah, let's, let's, let's have a conversation for sure.
Speaker A:One thing that you and I both took away that, you know, we still do, we can do a better job with it, especially on the back end.
Speaker A:But hiring profiles.
Speaker A:Can you tell everyone listening or watching what is a hiring profile and how do you use that to your advantage?
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:For all the listeners out there that are in a hiring manager position, these are things that we have learned over the years of hiring people, what's worked, what hasn't.
Speaker B:So please feel free to use our experience as judgment.
Speaker B:A couple of those things are low energy, bad body language, tons of excuses during the interview process, a bad previous boss, or I didn't get along with my teammates at my, you know, previous company.
Speaker B:You know, another.
Speaker B:Another piece that I love is anytime somebody goes to college and they don't have a good excuse for leaving or, you know, jumping ship, well, they're probably.
Speaker B:If they don't really like it here at Veritas in the first six months, they're probably going to look somewhere else.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So do we want to spend all this time on the teaching, the training, the coaching, the first six months and devote our time, which is very, very sl days into coaching this person if they're just going to take off in six months?
Speaker B:So I love to dig in on that.
Speaker B:Where if they went to school at Louisville and for six months and they didn't really like it, well, why, why didn't you like it?
Speaker B:Why did you leave?
Speaker B:And if they don't have a good justification or they don't.
Speaker B:Don't have a good answer for that.
Speaker B:Yeah, I'm probably not going to hire them.
Speaker A:Here's, here's a piece that a lot of people miss.
Speaker A:You have your hiring profile.
Speaker A:So those can be specific to each hiring manager.
Speaker A:You have your knockout factors.
Speaker A:Let's just say.
Speaker A:Yeah, negativity or domestic abuse.
Speaker B:Love a knockout.
Speaker A:Green flags, yellow flags, which, you know, yellow flag might be something you're a little indifferent on.
Speaker F:Sure.
Speaker A:Red flags are like, very concerning.
Speaker A:But you have your hiring profile.
Speaker A:You move forward.
Speaker A:You keep notes throughout the interview process.
Speaker A:You house those or try to keep those maybe in a filing folder, cabinet, whatever.
Speaker A:You make a bad hire, you get that person out the door.
Speaker A:The piece that people miss if they get really, really good at hiring, a lot of things will work out for itself.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:But if you're not learning from the mistakes, you're not going to help yourself.
Speaker A:You're not going to help your team, you're not going to help your company, so on and so forth.
Speaker A:So the point I'm getting at is what type of reflection is done after you realize you made a bad hire?
Speaker A:You got them out the door to learn more about what types of mistakes did you make or what did you not catch.
Speaker A:What about that person in that interview process?
Speaker A:Could you dug more into, review their resume, go through and say, I wrote a note about confidence or successful track record in sales, but like I didn't really dig into.
Speaker B:Yeah, why not?
Speaker A:Was he really that successful?
Speaker A:Because I didn't dig in there.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:Probably a referral.
Speaker B:You probably gave him the benefit of the doubt.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:I think we used to have an old colleague of ours that used to every December they would go back and look at all the resumes for the year, who's worked out, who hasn't.
Speaker B:And they started this process and it went on for three, four or five years.
Speaker B:Now they went back and they can really hone in on the attributes and the skills that these people have had or the life experiences, which we've seen a ton of people who've had hardship do really well in our industry and they really hone in on these things.
Speaker B:So they lock in on what works and what doesn't.
Speaker A:That's great.
Speaker A:And that's probably something that we should start.
Speaker A:I know for sure if you can hire smart, your life will be a lot easier.
Speaker A:We promise.
Speaker A:You want to thank everyone for listening and tuning in today?
Speaker A:Please subscribe.
Speaker A:Leave your comments on horror stories with bad hires.
Speaker A:We have these come out every Thursday.
Speaker A:Looking forward to tuning back in next week.
Speaker F:I really got to a point where I really had to figure it out.
Speaker F:And I hate admitting this, but it's just my.
Speaker F:It's just my truth is I read all the books and the entrepreneur stories where they say start with one product and one service and then grow it out from there.
Speaker F:And I just ignored it.
Speaker F:I felt that I could just tackle the world and it was just stupid.
Speaker F:There's just no reason to do that.
